Abuse?

[huzzah!]

I'm worried my sister-in-law punched my brother in the eye. He has a black eye on his left eye, and she's left-handed. If she had punched him, would she have hit him in the right eye or the left? Or can you punch someone in either eye? I don't know much about punching....

[la katrina]

Don't know much about punching, but you have other reasons to suspect your SIL, right? Some past behavior that set off alarm bells for you? Because there could be lots of innocent explanations for a black eye, so to go immediately to suspected spousal abuse seems odd to me, in the absence of any context about your brother's marriage.

[central]

Punching isn't cut and dry. I'm right handed but the last time I punched someone it ended up on the left side of their face. Depends on how the person is facing and where your fist is aiming.

But....a black eye doesn't automatically signify abuse. My mom popped herself in the face water skiing a few years ago and got bruises and her stupid sister was so sure that my stepdad beat her that she went and caused a minor family ruckus with her unfounded gossip. I'd ask your brother first about it and not start thinking abuse straight away.

[huzzah!]

Well, I should have clarified more but my mom was looking over my shoulder when I was typing so I felt like I had to hit "submit" really fast...

I have reasons to think my SIL is sometimes not a very nice wife, but I think things are still probably far enough away from the real "abuse" line, even if she did pop him in the eye, although I guess I don't want to be complacent, either, if things have headed that direction. I have witnessed her be very, very verbally violent toward him (the whole family has seen this), and she has done things like restrict how much he can see his own friends and family without her. But even this behavior I think is still safely not abusive, just not very healthy. They are in therapy, and my family has all hoped (and assumed) that this will take care of the screaming, controlling behavior, etc. in time. My brother is so in love with her that he usually believes it's his fault when she screams at him, and he readily agrees to not see his friends/family without her (which makes me a little nervous).

I wouldn't be worried about the black eye if it weren't for these other things. When I saw my brother, he definitely lied about the eye (he's a terrible liar and we're close enough that I always know) - I mentioned something to my SIL, and she said she had no idea how he had gotten the black eye. It's not so weird that he would have lied -- if he got in a bar fight or something at his age, I'm sure he's feeling sheepish -- but given their relationship I think it's highly unlikely that my brother wouldn't tell his wife how he got the black eye. Also, the black eye has what looks like a mark from a ring or other sharp object - it's fairly pronounced.

It could be that it was from something embarrassing like a bar fight and she's just agreed not to tell his secret. The "ring mark" could really be from a sharp knuckle or something, or maybe some other woman punched him for some reason. It's really hard for me to see him without my SIL being present (she also reads his emails and his texts), and I didn't want to question him about it if it wasn't possible for a left-handed person to punch someone on their left eye (across the face). But if it IS possible, then I wanted to just kind of take note and maybe make more of an effort to get him alone and ask him what happened.

I actually am not at all convinced that she hit him, I just wanted to find out if it was an impossibility before I tried to get more information.

[la katrina]

ookay. Still don't know anything about punching, but your SIL sure does sound abusive. He believes its his fault when she loses her temper? She monitors his email and texts, and tries to restrict who he can see? Straight out of an abuser warning signs list.

It's good that they are in counseling, and that your family is noticing this behavior pattern and not ignoring it. I don't know what you can do to help (maybe ask a professional to guide you in that). But I will definitely validate your worry. If you can, I think getting some alone time with your brother would be great, just to let him know you're worried about him.

[KosmoKramer]

Been there, done that, got the hospital, police records and Permanent Protective Order to prove it. When I read your posting I have to say it gets me riled up.

I was in a physically/verbally/psychologically abusive marriage for sixteen years. I can say with some authority that the abuse you suspect has some accompanying red flags which should not be ignored.

Insecure/controlling/abusive people limit their SO’s contact with family and friends in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.
The insecure/controlling person will say something along the lines of “I hate going to your mom’s house for dinner because your sister is such a bitch!” At that point the person who is being controlled, who loves their family/friends, thinks “I better not go around my family too much anymore because it will be a create problems for my family” or “It is best if I just avoid making plans with my family/friends because he/she just takes it out on me later.” Sparing the feelings of family and friends becomes important.

Or the controlling/insecure partner will simply say, “We aren’t going to anymore of your family gatherings because everyone treats me like I am the bad guy.” Then the controlled person begins to think, “she/he is uncomfortable with my circle, so maybe I will just pull back to just him/her and demonstrate my support for them.” This is how the isolation from family and friends occurs.

The abusive relationship may simply begin and end with verbally abusive language. Or the abusive language is a starting point for further escalation of abuse. (Personally, If I was present with my brother, whom I love very much, and his wife was talking shit to him, I would not care what the fallout would be. I would tell her to STFU. Sometimes calling someone on their bad behavior will do a world of good.)

Four things jump out at me.
1. “…she said she had no idea how he had gotten the black eye.” I call bullshit on this one. People in a healthy relationship have no problem discussing humorous and not so humorous situations with people they are close to.

2. “...she has done things like restrict how much he can see his own friends and family without her.” This also reeks of insecure and controlling behaviour. People who love each other help and encourage their SO to be happy and have a life of their own outside the relationship.

3. “...he usually believes it's his fault when she screams at him, and he readily agrees to not see his friends/family without her.” WTF?! What right-minded man or woman allows another person, let alone their intimate partner, to scream at and/or and berate them? **INSERT JON AND KATE PLUS EIGHT HERE** Are you and your family just gonna stand there and let that shit go on? I mean what happens with they have kids (or already have kids, you didn’t specify) and she speaks to their kids that way? IF this marriage continues into the parenting stage, there WILL be some fucked up kids as a result.

4. “It's really hard for me to see him without my SIL being present (she also reads his emails and his texts.” Please refer to item two of this list. It is more of the same. What does she think she will discover by invading the privacy of your brother?

Long story short, if you love your brother as much as I love mine you’ll find a way to have a long talk with him. If he chooses her and decides to avoid any contact with his family, that is his choice. If he cuts off contact with you and your family, you can find ways to remind him that you guys love him no matter what and that will never change.

P.S. He needs to go to individual counselling without HER!.

[huzzah!]

I've sinced talked to some of my friends who have been in fights, and they've all assured me that it's not very likely for someone to punch someone else across the face. I feel better. I think I'm going to assume the best this time, unless he shows up with another bruise in the future.

When I saw my brother and SIL, it DID seem like things were going better between them - she was much, much nicer, even though she did insist on coming to dinner with us and wouldn't let us hang out alone. So I'm hoping this is a good sign, that the therapy is helping them sort through some of their problems.

Thanks for the input! Even though their relationship is really unhealthy right now, I couldn't really imagine it turning physically violent -- but I have to watch my brother's back, too, you know? He doesn't seem to see what we see in this relationship, so it makes me and my family a little more "on guard" than we probably would be otherwise.

[misswheezie]

You really need to get your brother alone - pick him up from work, meet him for lunch - whatever - and ask him point blank and even if he denies anything is happening, let him know that you are there for him. I see domestic violence victims (male and female) on a daily basis, and yes, after an incident the perpetrator is usually overly affectionate and 'nicer', its their way of playing the game that it was an accident, they didn't mean to do it etc.

[huzzah!]

Whoa, Thanks Kosmo, for your advice. I hadn't seen your post when I sent my last one. Thanks MissW too.

Just wanted to add that we (meaning my parents, my sister and I) have had many direction conversations with my brother about this, and many more attempted conversations. We by no means will stop trying to help him, either. It's just that we've learned the hard way that no amount of talking to him seems to help him in the ways we want it to, and it often backfires. This is why I've learned to be a little cautious, and I didn't want to point-blank ask him if my SIL hit him if it wasn't really a physical possibility. That kind of question would be seen as an "accusation," and even if I asked him in private it would probably result in me not seeing him for several months.

He doesn't see or isn't willing to admit how much he is controlled by his wife, and as a result he usually either gets very defensive when we try to talk about these things and/or comes up with a lot of reasons about why his wife is right and if he were a better person she wouldn't yell etc. We do refute these things, all the time. We're just happy they finally agreed to go to therapy, it seems like the only headway we've made in three years.

I have also been very direct with my SIL, but have learned that this, too, leads to more isolation. Kosmo, like you described, everything gets twisted into how my family makes her feel so uncomfortable and treats her so badly that she can't possibly spend time with us, and that my brother is abandoning her or betraying her if he spends time with us. There are a lot of more subtle things, too -- like if she's out of town, I'll make plans to see him, and then lo and behold she'll call with some emergency exactly when we're supposed to meet up, and he'll cancel our plans. Or she'll be out of town and at the very last minute come home several days early so she can go out to dinner with us, too. I've told him specifically many times that I'd like to see him without my SIL - told him I've needed big-brother advice, told him I just needed some sibbie bonding time, etc - and every time he's said ok and then later called saying my SIL is really upset that she wasn't invited and we need to invite her, too. Or, he's said that 'we're all family now' so I shouldn't want/need to see him alone. Or, I've shown up expecting to see him alone and my SIL has been there, too, and offered no explanation when I said I thought it was a brother-sister thing. I've pointed all this out to my brother - at first directly, and then more gently - and he only gets angry when I do. My family and I have basically figured out that when we try to stand up for him he feels caught in the middle, and that just makes things worse. So instead we talk A LOT about what a "healthy relationship" looks like. I talk A LOT about how close my boyfriend is to his family and friends, and I talk about how I'm happy when he goes to visit them without me, because I know that's important. We talk about how no one deserves to be yelled at. We tell him how much we love him and we tell him he can call any time, and that he (and his wife) are welcome in our homes any time (either my parents' house, my apartment or my sister's apartment).

I guess what I'm saying is my family and I are VERY well aware that the controlling behavior and the violent language is not even remotely ok, and we consistently present this message to my brother. HE does not seem to be aware of this or is not ready to deal with it yet, so not a lot of change has happened. We've learned that we can't control this situation and that we can only be a continual and loving presence. But when I saw that black eye, I was worried that things had crossed the line into the physical, and if that was the case I was prepared to take stronger action -- however, this isn't something I wanted to do lightly because it could easily result in a total loss of what tenuous communication I have with my brother. The risk of not asking my brother directly about this may seem very high, but the risk of asking is also very, very high. It's also very unlikely that I'll be able to talk to my brother alone unless I call him at work, since my SIL consistently makes alone time impossible, and I feel like a "is your wife hitting you?" conversation is not something that he might be able to have at work.

I CAN, however, just ask him more about his eye in general, and something might come out or something might not. Right now that's what I'm going to do, because I do actually think his wife wouldn't have hit him in his left eye, and the risk of asking a more pointed question is too great if I'm not at all certain that's what happened. My family has all talked about this, and we've all agreed we're just going to keep asking open-ended questions and repeating that we're here no matter what, and that we're going to make sure to see him more, even if it's with my SIL, so that we can keep an eye on things. Certainly if more signs of physical violence were to show up we'd have to come up with a different plan. But for now, I don't want to risk losing all communication with my brother and any hope of helping him on a suspicion.

[misswheezie]

I just wanted to followup on your comment that it would be almost impossible for a left hander to blacken the left eye - while it would be difficult if one was using their fist and punching straight ahead of them, it is fairly easy when one is backhanded (or elbowed), also happens when weapons or objects used as weapons are swung or thrown. She's his wife, you cannot honestly think that she didn't notice his eye's condition before his family did, and, like most wives, a normal wife would have inquired as to what happened.

domestic violence is a horrible experience for women but it is worse for men for several reasons. First, - who are you going to tell? The police officer - chances are most are going to buy whatever story she concocts - he hit her first, she's afraid of him, etc. Even if the officer buys his story over hers, most men fail to press charges because of the stigma attached to being beat up by a woman. Second, there are few resources where men can get help, unlike women's shelters and domestic violence advocates (many of which will decline when a male is referred to them and/or suggest alternatives that are in no way comparable). Finally, and most importantly, is the fact that men feel demasculated when they are beat up/abused by a women. They become isolated because they are afraid to tell their male friends, fearing they are going to think them less of a man. They become afraid to tell their families, for the same reasons, but also because they fear looking as a failure to their family.

My advice - befriend the sister-in-law even if it kills you to be nice to her. Show your brother that you and your family are making sincere efforts to include her in on everything - chances are if they are in an abusive relationship, she may be using her lack of relationship with his family as a 'reason' for her anger/jealousy/controlling behavior - which in turn makes him feel as if he's done something wrong to justify why this happens. Plus, by including her in, you increase the opportunities to observe their relationship (much harder to hide signs of abuse both physical and verbal if you are seeing him more frequently).

[LadyRed]

My advice - befriend the sister-in-law even if it kills you to be nice to her. Show your brother that you and your family are making sincere efforts to include her in on everything - chances are if they are in an abusive relationship, she may be using her lack of relationship with his family as a 'reason' for her anger/jealousy/controlling behavior - which in turn makes him feel as if he's done something wrong to justify why this happens. Plus, by including her in, you increase the opportunities to observe their relationship (much harder to hide signs of abuse both physical and verbal if you are seeing him more frequently).

I think that is a terrible idea; it's dishonest and underhanded, and will totally backfire when you finally say to your brother "ah ha! I knew it! I knew she was abusive!"

Ultimately you may need to "surprise" him to get him alone and tell him that it is absolutely RIDICULOUS that you can never see him without her around; I would think there are counselors/interventionists who specialize in this sort of thing, and that your family could maybe come up with some creative idea to have him without her (or with her, fuck it, she needs to know she's being a controlling assmonkey) to sit him down and talk about how this is affecting the rest of the family.

Or, you could always call a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy.